Systemics :  Phorum 5 The fastest message board... ever.
"General discussion" on topics on the systems sciences 
Goto Thread: PreviousNext
Goto: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
[sigchairs] Should SIGS start all over??? {Tom Mandel, 2004/03/28}
Posted by: daviding (---.sympatico.ca)
Date: March 30, 2004 04:31PM

----- Forwarded by David Ing/Markham/IBM on 03/30/2004 11:30 PM -----
Thommandel@aol.com
Sent by: owner-sigchairs@isss.org
03/28/2004 02:26 PM
Please respond to sigchairs
To: sigchairs@isss.org
cc:
Subject: [sigchairs] Should SIGS start all over???


Could it be that we need to start all over with our SIGS? As it is there is hardly any participation outside of the meeting by the Sigs as a whole. We have one or two or three SIGS that participate, but the remainder are never heard from. Even my repeated requests to obtain web pages from "us" is ignored as a whole.

Perhaps it would be BETTER if just eliminated ALL the SIGs and let them reapply. This way we could require the necessary documentation and at least the SIGS we would end up with are serious about working in and for ISSS.

Would it be BETTER if we had a small number of SIGs that are real, than a large number who are obviously not serious.

If the SIGs do not reply to this, then by the legal principle of acquiescence they vote to remain out.

"What goes around comes around"

Tom

[sigchairs] Tangible support {John Kineman, 2004/03/29}
Posted by: daviding (---.sympatico.ca)
Date: March 30, 2004 04:34PM

----- Forwarded by David Ing/Markham/IBM on 03/30/2004 11:31 PM -----
"John J Kineman" <John.J.Kineman@noaa.gov>
Sent by: owner-sigchairs@isss.org
03/29/2004 06:31 PM
Please respond to sigchairs
To: sigchairs@isss.org
cc:
Subject: Re: [sigchairs] Should SIGS start all over???


I think (on partial behalf of the WILL SIG - Ron must be consulted for
the other part), that you could go either way, but that a different
result is not guaranteed by the methods described. The SIG structure in
my case has allowed over 30 papers to be contributed on a common
question, which some of us would now like to synthesize into a summary
volume and get published. I talked to one publisher who said it would be
interesting, but of course it is a difficult and time consuming process,
and I don't have much experience with it. Also, all this is happening
without any funding at all, which itself is a phenomenon of mutual
interest. Without the ISSS blessing this probably would not have
happened and we would not be planning a meeting at Asilomar to discuss
synthesis and future directions, nor would whatever individual benefits
to peoples's work have taken place from use of the publications have
occurred.

Having said that, participation in WILL has been very spotty and
variable year to year. Tapping all the participants is a chore. I'm not
even sure who the "participants" are and what defines a participant -
prior paper contribution, attendance at the annual meetings, or official
sign-up on the membership list and contribution of some money, which I
never see.

In short, what I continue to think is missing is not the organization of
the SIGS or their "seriousness" but ISSS support for them. There need to
be tangible ways in which ISSS actually helps. The meetings are
certainly one, and a sufficient one so far to keep the SIGS functioning,
albeit relatively independently. Web assistance would be another, but
not just requests for pages developed elsewhere, which could just as
easily (or more easily in fact) be posted elsewhere. I, for example,
have contributed descriptions of WILL but can find no evididence of them
on the ISSS site, except sometimes in the annual Call. There is only
contact information. After 6 years of WILL existing, that is
disappointing. Where can someone go to find out what WILL is about? I
have a brochure. My plan is to develop my own website, but since it is
an unfunded personal interest, time to work on it is a serioius problem
until I retire or morph my current work in that direction (whcih is
happening, thankfully).

ISSS should be assisting with (a) publication (it does, via the
proceedings, which we pay for), and (b) SIG funding using the auspices
of ISSS to look for support funds that can be divided by some formula or
competed for by the SIGS, (c) web development, difficult as that is to
find the right collaborative formula.

In short ISSS cannot be only the recipient of benefits from the SIGS, it
needs to provide them too. What is currently provided does produce paper
contributions each year and significant community involvements and
discussions that happen independently and largely beyond ISSS view. Taht
may be enough of a beneficial trade already, but it is hard to track on
both sides. But if you want more involvement, or more explicit evidence
of it, there needs to be more ISSS or other support that allows the SIGS
to do more than meet once a year and submit papers on a common theme.
That probably means money.

JJK

--
2004 John J. Kineman
all rights reserved

[sigchairs] Publication, web, chair responsibility {Maurice Yolles, 2004/03/30}
Posted by: daviding (---.sympatico.ca)
Date: March 30, 2004 04:37PM

----- Forwarded by David Ing/Markham/IBM on 03/30/2004 11:34 PM -----
"Maurice Yolles" <maurice.yolles@ntlworld.com>
Sent by: owner-sigchairs@isss.org
03/30/2004 05:06 AM
Please respond to sigchairs
To: <sigchairs@isss.org>
cc:
Subject: Re: [sigchairs] Should SIGS start all over???


Hi John.

You say:
"ISSS should be assisting with:
(a) publication (it does, via the proceedings, which we pay for),
(b) SIG funding using the auspices of ISSS to look for support funds that
can be divided by some formula or competed for by the SIGS,
(c) web development, difficult as that is to find the right collaborative
formula."

I agree in essence. Publications are the explicit form of knowledge that can
be made available. Where material should be published is an issue. It could
be in journals, and listed on the website. It could be in books, but with a
commercial consideration so that the ISSS is not just paying out money. This
implies proper and due publication process. E-books are also a low cost way
of progressing.

ISSS does not have that much money to fund things, and methods must be found
to encourage people to publish through the ISSS. This statement has a number
of implications that must be considered in due course.

Web development requires not only;y structure, but content. SIG chairs will
have to take responsibility for their own content I am afraid. There is no
other way. I expect that we shall be able to provide a template in the new
development that is taking place.

There is a need to make the ISSS more visible from a research perspective,
and this does mean publication of research work under the umbrella of the
ISSS.

Maurice

[sigchairs] Potential for forum at Asilomar? {John Kineman, 2004/03/30}
Posted by: daviding (---.sympatico.ca)
Date: March 30, 2004 04:38PM

----- Forwarded by David Ing/Markham/IBM on 03/30/2004 11:36 PM -----
John Kineman <jjk@nexial.org>
Sent by: owner-sigchairs@isss.org
03/30/2004 01:03 PM
Please respond to sigchairs
To: sigchairs@isss.org
cc:
Subject: Re: [sigchairs] Should SIGS start all over???


That all sounds great. I wonder if there should be a special forum at
Asilomar to discuss opportunities for getting funds into ISSS for grants
and the like.



Post Edited (03-30-04 21:38)

[sigchairs] In membership or formal meetings {Maurice Yolles, 2004/03/30}
Posted by: daviding (---.sympatico.ca)
Date: March 30, 2004 04:40PM

----- Forwarded by David Ing/Markham/IBM on 03/30/2004 11:38 PM -----
"Maurice Yolles" <maurice.yolles@ntlworld.com>
Sent by: owner-sigchairs@isss.org
03/30/2004 03:53 PM
Please respond to sigchairs
To: <sigchairs@isss.org>
cc:
Subject: Re: [sigchairs] Should SIGS start all over???


Good idea. Perhaps it could be part of the membership meeting, or even all
of the formal meetings carried through?
Maurice

[sigchairs] Funding application processes {Anne Nelson, 2004/03/31}
Posted by: daviding (---.sympatico.ca)
Date: April 29, 2004 03:22PM

Gentlemen:

I have some experience with the funding application process
vis a vis federal agencies. To be brief the situation is this:
1. Granting agencies are PRIMARILY interested in providing funds to academics, who
are connected in a particular way to universities.
2. YES, they do fund private agencies, and non-affiliated groups. However,
it is my experience that for a small non profit such as ISSS to become recognized as a legitimate applicant of independent status, requires several years. The non-profit needs to establish itself as a reputable, and dependable institution. That
is done slowly, in stages of small grants that increase as the reputation for
academic excellence is established, AS WELL AS, the dependability of the
administration is established. That is to say the federal agencies need time and
experience with the administration of a small non-profit that is transparent and delivers the work as promised, when promised.
3. Of course, there are some small monies available, to help put on conferences. However, again those monies are best accessed in partnership with a university.
Thank you and take care,
Anne Nelson
Women and Children in Community Systems



Post Edited (04-29-04 19:22)

[sigchairs] Little response {Maurice Yolles, 2004/03/31}
Posted by: daviding (---.sympatico.ca)
Date: April 29, 2004 03:24PM

I circulated some information a little while ago about possible projects.
Since many ISSS members are associated with Universities and companies, it
could have been possible to set something going. Only one contact from Bela
responded, and nothing has come from this. Projects that operate under ISSS
do not have to be specific to ISSS, but can be subsidiary to it (support
role).

Best wishes, Maurice

[sigchairs] Funding partnerships {Tom Mandel, 2004/04/01}
Posted by: daviding (---.sympatico.ca)
Date: April 29, 2004 03:44PM

Paul Werbos at NSF is responsible for many of NSF's funding grants. But his area is engineering at the doing level. Does anyone have an engineering project based on system principles that actually produces a product? At any rate, Paul would be a good person to ask what we need to do to get involved with the "flow" of financial support. Support that we deserve by the test of time. Paul can be reached at pwerbos@nsf.gov (Werbos, Dr. Paul J.) AND he is one our quantum-theory experts too!

[sigchairs] Engineering projects based on systems {G.A. Swanson 2004/04/03}
Posted by: daviding (---.sympatico.ca)
Date: April 29, 2004 04:12PM

Tom,

Janet and Farrokh do...

GA



Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.